Transcript

Don: It's been speculated in the newspapers for a long time that you would be elected to the Hall of Fame, and you've won many awards in your baseball career; was this just another award to you? Did you take this in stride?

Jackie: It's impossible to take an honor such as this in stride, Don. I've been thrilled. We've been up on cloud nine for about 48 hours and I don't know when we're coming down. It's just a tremendously wonderful feeling, and I'm thrilled beyond words and I'm very appreciative of the things that have happened to me over the last few years.

Don: When was the first time you started to think seriously about the possibility you might someday be elected to the Hall of Fame?

Jackie: I would have to say, in all honesty, just recently because I didn't really give a great deal of thought to it, not even when I retired from baseball because first you have to wait a five year period, then I started looking around and noticing how long it took some of the real greats of baseball to get into the Hall of Fame and I wasn't going to be disappointed personally if I didn't get in. So I just sort of took it in stride and it was only until the last month and a half or so that I really started to think about it because newspapermen started calling and asking me questions; how I would feel if I got in, or how I would feel if I didn't get in. And I gave it a little thought. I talked it over with my family. But, as I say, I had built up a little shield for me personally, so if I didn't get in I wouldn't be too disappointed.

Don: Supposedly the first person you called when you heard you had been elected was Branch Rickey. Was this only because he was the man who gave you the opportunity to break into baseball or was there more to it?

Jackie: There's a lot more to it than that, Don. Mr. Rickey has been somewhat like a father to me. I put in two calls about the same time. The first one went to my mother. My wife was sitting along side of me so I didn't have to call her. My first call went to my mother and the line was busy. So I waited a couple of minutes and called her back; it was still busy so I then put in a call to Mr. Rickey. I wanted to be the one to pass it along. I did this because it's impossible to estimate what Mr. Rickey meant to me and my career; what he meant to the early days of my baseball. Had it not been for the constant advice and the constant guidance and inspiration that he gave me, I couldn't even have been given consideration for going into the Hall of Fame. So in my thinking, when I heard the news, the first people that came to my mind were Mr. Rickey and my mother and I felt I had to call them immediately because I felt it was their honor as well as mine.

Don: You played many positions during your career: first base, second base, third base, and left field. Which did you enjoy the most and which did you find the most difficult?

Jackie: Well, I enjoyed playing second base because I knew how to play that position best. I started in Montreal at second base, and I played one year at first base at the start of a season, and that was tough for me. But when I moved to second base I became relaxed and at ease. Then I moved over to third when I got to be a little older. Then I got another year older so they moved me to left field and that was really tough. I couldn't play the outfield. I remember trying to run into a ball in Philadelphia and I was coming in fast and I was running on my heels and all of a sudden it looked like the b all was bouncing up and down and when I finally got to it I reached for it and when I thought it was down actually it was up and when it went by it just barely missed hitting me on the top of the head. So I figured that left field was the toughest position because I wasn't an outfielder and any baseball player will tell you that when you don't know anything about a position it's really tough trying to move in and play it, and play it well.

Don: Jackie, you're one of the examples of the truly all around ball player, particularly base running, hitting and fielding. Of those three which did you enjoy doing the most?

Jackie: Oh, I liked running the bases. That was a big thrill. I could always tell when I had the opposition somewhat rattled, and when I ran and they were rattled, I got a big kick out of it and I tried to carry it on.

I often marveled how some of the guys would get so upset that they would want to, instead of throwing the ball at the plate, they would have much preferred to have thrown it at me. And I remember one time when I was stealing home, the pitcher was so angry he didn't even come close to home plate, he threw the ball right at me and I slid in without any chance of being out. The ball went up against the railing in the back and I got up kind of laughing, inwardly, because the fellow had been tremendously upset and he couldn't do anything other than to throw the ball at me.

And sometimes it would upset the whole team to the point where we able to go on and win games. And I loved that part of it. I liked all of baseball when I was playing, but base stealing was the number one thing for me.

Don: I'm glad to hear you say that because I think that's what the fans found most exciting, also. How do you go about stealing home plate?

Jackie: Well actually it's reflexes. You can't make up your mind on any given pitch that you're going to try to steal home because you can't outrun the baseball. But when you're moving up and down the line the first thing I knew I had to do was get well off of third base before the pitcher even started his motion and when he started I had to make my move immediately and if it appeared to me that he was going to stop at the height of his windup, that's when your reflexes came in and you have to go on home real quick, or you have to break yourself and go on back. So it's reflexes and you couldn't say on any given pitch, “Well, I'm going home on this particular pitch” because it depended on what the pitcher was doing on the mound.

Don: When actually then did you make up your mind to go home?

Jackie: It had to be the last split second; if I got about half way home and it appeared to me the pitcher was going to throw home I would stop and dart back as fast as I could because if I didn't get back real quick I would be thrown out at third base and certainly I'd be out by a quarter of the way if he started to throw when I was half way; so I would have to be almost three quarters of the way down the line before I decided that I was going to go. It seems almost an impossible thing to say, but when I started with the 60 foot line I knew I had to be at least 20 feet up the baseline before I knew I could even attempt it, and I would move up another third or fourth of the way before I knew that I had a chance of going home. And then in many cases I was safe only because the pitcher threw the ball a little too high or he made a bad toss at the plate and the catcher had to go out to get the ball. So it's a most difficult thing, the steal of home, but it was exciting to me, as it was to the fans.

Don: Who was the toughest pitcher to steal a base off?

Jackie: Well when you start from first base, Warren Spahn was the toughest pitcher. I never tried to steal on Warren because I remember too frequently being hung up between first and second with egg on my face with Spahn and I decided if I got on base against Warren Spahn I was going to stay there and he wasn't going to pick me off because the longest walk of any I know other than that of being taken out as far as a pitcher is concerned if when you get thrown out being picked off a base and the umpire says “out” and you have to go from second base all the way into the dugout. It's like you just wanted to dig a hole and crawl under the ground and go in there. But to me, Warren Spahn had the greatest move of any I know. Right-handers; there were a number of them with great moves. They would give you deception by dropping that left leg down and the next thing you'd know that ball is coming to first, but of all the ones I know I would pick Warren Spahn in the National League.

Don: Jackie, I think you've said before that 1951 was your most exciting season, or the season where you thought you contributed the most to the Dodgers. And yet, in 1949, you hit 342 and won the batting crown. You also knocked in 124 RBI's as compared with 88 in 1951, and in other statistics you were better in 1949. Why then was 1951 a better season for you?

Jackie: Well, I'm a guy that does not believe in statistics. I don't think they really tell a man's value to his ball team. A guy hits 35 homeruns, but he hits them when they don't mean a thing. A guy hits 324, but doesn't get the hit at the proper time. I felt that perhaps-I didn't know what the statistics were; as I said, they don't mean very much- but I thought that in '51 I got more key hits to help our ball club than I did- you say I had 124 RBI's in '49- I feel that I got more key hits in '51 then I did in '49, and my contributions to the ball club were greater in my opinion.

Don: If you could see a film of one game the Dodgers played during your career, which game do you think you'd pick?

Jackie: That's a difficult question. It certainly wouldn't be the Giant game of 1951; I assure you of that. I think it would have to be the last game of the 1955 World Series. Although I was sitting on t he bench watching the ball game, I can picture today Sandy Amoros going over and making the great catch and turning it into a double play. I can picture the last play of the ball game as Reese catches the ball and throws it to Gil Hodges. I can remember darting out of the dugout to join in the jubilation. This is the game I want to remember most of all the games that I've ever participated in or had anything to do with. It was a tremendous feeling because for baseball players the winning of the World's Championship is something that you just hope for all along and after facing the Yankees in four previous years and not winning and finally beating them on the fifth try gave me a great thrill.

Don: Let's go back to 1951 for a moment, Jackie, and I'm sure you won't have any trouble remembering the last game of the season. You entered that day tied with the Giants for first place and the Giants victory over the Braves, 3-2, behind Larry Jansen had already been posted on the scoreboard and you made up deficits of 6-1 to the Phillies and then 8-5. It was a tie score. I believe it was the bottom of the eleventh inning. The bases were loaded and there were two outs, and Eddie Waitkus hit a line drive. The announcer on the radio have already screamed that it was into right field and the Giants had won the pennant when he suddenly corrected himself and said that Jackie Robinson had made a beautiful diving catch. And then he said that you flipped the ball to second to get the force just in case the umpire ruled your catch a trap. Now in an article in a Long Island newspaper Newsday about a year ago, Jack Mann claimed that you had actually trapped the ball but that being the great competitor you were, and being smart you had stayed on the ground on top of the ball knowing that the umpire would not want to rule it safe and end the pennant on a call he couldn't be sure of. What was the truth? Did you catch the ball? Was there a flip to second base?

Jackie: I caught the ball at least a foot off the ground, in my opinion, it was that high off the ground. I flipped the ball to second base just before I felt myself going out. I jammed my elbows into my ribs. I don't know where Jack was at that particular time to say that I had trapped the ball, but he certainly wasn't in any position to see it. Jocko Conlon was right on top of the plate. There was no doubt in his mind about my catching it. There never has been any doubt in my mind about catching that ball and I can imagine that whoever wrote this, you say Jack Mann, I would imagine Jack was probably sitting in Long Island and the game was being played in Philadelphia if he made that statement.

Don: Well, I guess that rather emphatically settles the issue. Jackie, was there ever any time that you went up to home plate and that you had it set in your mind that you wanted to hit a homerun?

Jackie: Well, I was a kind of a baseball player that knew that if I went up to home plate with it in my mind that I'm going to hit a homerun or attempted a homerun at this time that I was a dead pigeon because I wasn't a homerun hitter and I knew that if the only way that I could hit a homerun was that in my swing, which was one that came down from up high, I hadn't held my bat very high, that I would just get under the ball just a wee bit more than I usually did and the ball would, with the spin, would carry a long way. But most of the times I hit line drives. I knew it and I never went for a homerun except when the game was out of question or some such thing like that. If I attempted to do this, I usually popped it and I could see the catcher catching these balls every time I attempted to hit a homerun. So I knew this wasn't for me and I would just try to meet the ball and let it do whatever it would.

Don: How about the players of today? Do you think there is a tendency or a trend for them to try for the homerun instead of to hit it where it's pitched?

Jackie: I think Maris is, yes, perhaps because that's the kind of swinger he is. Mantle is a hard, free swinger. I certainly think that a guy like Nelly Fox, for instance, would be a real, would be ridiculous for him to walk up and try to hit a homerun. Aparicio, I'm sure that there are guys on the Boston Ball club that are the same way that are line drive hitters, are singles, and doubles and triples hitters. It would be ridiculous for them to go up and attempt to hit homeruns. Each of us has to know our capabilities. Each of us will have to know how we swing. I think this is true in baseball; it’s true in business. You have to know your capabilities and if you’re not a homerun hitter, I would say certainly don’t go up there trying to hit the homerun or you’ll find yourself doing nothing but making big outs.

Don: You played ball alongside of Don Newcomb during his best years with the Dodgers. Don was a great pitcher but, unfortunately, his accomplishments were clouded by newspaper writers who claimed that Don couldn't pitch in the clutch. Was there any truth to this?

Jackie: Well, let's go back to the 1951 season that you are talking about. Don pitched two games in one day because we were short of pitchers, you know, a double header. He came in on a very tough situation where we needed a game to win and he pitched magnificently. Don Newcomb won I think 20, what, 25 ball games one year?

Don: 27.

Jackie: He won 27 ball games like that. You show me a man that can go out and win 27 ball games during the course of a season, and not have guts. I think this gave the newspapermen an opportunity of talking about a guy, gave them a better story – I played with Don; I know him, and if Don didn’t have guts, I didn’t have any, and I know very well I’ve got guts.

Don: The statistics bore Jackie Robinson out. On the Saturday night before that 1951 season ended, Don Newcomb pitched nine innings of shutout ball. He beat the Phillies 5-0 for the Dodgers. The next day he pitched the last 5 innings of relief where, the next day Robinson made that fantastic catch in the bottom of the eleventh inning to send the season; send the Dodgers into the playoff. Incidentally, in that game Robinson also hit the winning homerun in the top of the fourteenth inning. Then Newcomb came back on Wednesday for the third day of playoff games against the Giants. He pitched with only two days rest. He went nine and a third innings before giving way to Ralph Branca, and then when he came out, after pitching, with only two days rest, after going 14 innings the newspapermen got on to him for not going the full distance and they claimed that he hadn't given a clutch performance, when actually, the fact that he went 8 innings giving up only one run, was certainly a clutch performance.

Jackie Robinson is an interviewer's delight. You ask him a two or three part question and he answers each part in detail and then adds some more information. For example, I happened to mention to Jackie, not even expecting an answer, that I just wanted to ask him a few more questions and just wanted to reminisce with him about his playing days with the Dodgers for a few moments longer. Then I went on to Preacher Roe; I said Jackie, you played ball alongside Preacher Roe for several years. Preacher was a tremendous pitcher with the Dodgers, but after he retired he wrote in a magazine article that he had thrown a spitball on many occasions. Did you know that he was throwing a spitball while you were playing alongside of him? Did any of the Dodgers know that Preacher Roe was throwing a spitball?

Jackie: Well, Campanella certainly had to know because he wouldn't have been able to catch that ball. I see a ball go up and dip, but frankly we didn't know because he didn't tell us and certainly then, if he told us and we started being alert toward it, the umpire would know about it. So although we knew by conversation that Roe was a spitball pitcher at times, just like we knew that there were many other guys in baseball that were spitball pitchers, we didn't know the given pitch that he was going to throw it. It's kind of remarkable that a guy with this cunning and all was able to do the kinds of things that Preacher was, he was a great pitcher and a great competitor. And as I sit here and talk to you, you know, sit here and have you remember all these statistics and things reminds me of Howard Cosell there in New York. He was the kind of guy who would just, the same kind of mind to be able to remember all of these events. You must have a great love for this game of baseball and sports to be able to remember it this way and I find it marvelous to sit here and reminisce with you and listen to you talk about the things that happened. Don Newcomb- 5-0 pitching 5 innings the next day and then come back with two days rest and pitching the way he did. That's remarkable and I'm really enjoying it.

Don: That compliment from Jackie Robinson was included in this tape as an example of the man's warmth and friendliness and easy manner, but actually one deserves no credit for remembering facts about the Dodgers of the 1950's, for they were one of the most colorful teams of all times. They had such great layers as Duke Snyder, Roy Campanella, Carl Furillo, Gil Hodges, Peewee Reese. I asked Jackie Robinson if he had a choice which of those players he'd like to see up in the clutch, say in the ninth inning with the bases loaded?

Jackie: Very good question. Very good question. There’s one guy you left out in there that I have to say I’d like to see up there, Billy Cox. I'd like to see Billy Cox up in a situation like that, then I'd think it would be Jim Gilliam. These are the fellows I believe were the same kind of hitters, whether it was 10-0, or 1 to nothing or two outs with the bases loaded. I like to see the guy who could walk up under any situation and do the same kind of thing. If some fellow who could hit 324, 320, when that situation arose, they weren't quite the performers that the other guys were, but day in and day out they would get their base hits and do the kinds of things that make them a standout ballplayer. But a clutch situation, Billy Cox, I'd love to see out there because if Billy is going to base hit, he's going to get it. It didn't make any difference and that's the way I felt about my roommate, Jim Gilliam.

Don: Before ending my interview with Jackie Robinson I wanted to find out his present status and plans for the future. I knew that he was vice president of Chock Full o' Nuts and I knew that something had happened recently at the company that Robinson had been given an honor or a promotion or something, but I wasn't quite sure. Notice how tactfully Jackie Robinson answered when I incorrectly asked him about the promotion which I thought that he had been given but about which I was wrong.

That's your current status, correct, you are vice president of Chock Full o' Nuts and I think you recently got a promotion, is that right?

Jackie: Well, no, when you go from vice president a promotion that's got to be the presidency and I haven't been moved up there and I don't ever expect to. I have been appointed as a member of the board. This may be what you are talking about as far as promotions are concerned and it was a tremendous honor because I think Chock Full o' Nuts is one of the finest companies around and to be a member of the board is a big thrill.

Don: Jackie added that the reason he didn't ever expect to be president was because he and everyone else had so much respect for the current president, Mr. Black. Then I asked Jackie the question which had been on my mind throughout our entire interview and which I imagine has been on the minds of almost all baseball fans since Jackie Robinson retired from baseball. Is there any chance that you'll ever be back in baseball, say, as a manager or coach?

Jackie: No chance, Don. I am very happy at Chock Full o’Nuts. At one time Chock Full o’Nuts was interested in buying the ball club and we were talking about that, you know, there was a lot of interest. People were asking me about what I thought about it. Should we do this, should we do that, and I felt then if they did it would be a great thing because it would be Chock Full o' Nuts and I would be still a part of the company. I don't think I could leave a man like William Black to go into another field, whether it's baseball or whether it's another business. I'm very happy, very contented where I am.

Don: Because of his intelligence and because of his ability to express himself people respect Jackie Robinson's attitude towards politics and his opinions on the political situation. Jackie Robinson is one of the representatives of the American Negro. Therefore, I asked Jackie Robinson why he had come out into the 1960 election campaign so strongly for Richard Nixon, whether he still felt he'd rather have Richard Nixon in the White House and whether he was more satisfied with President Kennedy now, less satisfied than he thought he would be, exactly how he thought about President Kennedy?

Jackie: Well, there are times that I am very pleased with the Kennedy administration. And then there comes a time like as the State of the Union, if you are going to talk about civil rights and then in the press conference someone questions him about the housing bill, that he promised to give to the American people, for him to say that he is going to sign this bill when he deems it in the best interest of the public, I have to be disturbed and upset about something like this because it's always the Negro who gets the things last. It's always the Negro who has to be satisfied and contented with conditions as they are. If they anger somebody else, then we're not going to do anything about them. If they're happy with them, then they'll make the decision. I'm not saying that Mr. Nixon would have done any better. It's a most difficult thing to say, but my feeling is that certainly any President, President Kennedy included, has to be pressed, has to be hit when he makes a mistake and this is what I believe. I have no way in the world saying whether Mr. Nixon would have been a better man. I thought so at the time. If the election was to be run tomorrow and the conditions were the same, and if Mr. Kennedy had said to me as he did in Washington, “Jack, my trouble is that, coming from Boston, I didn't have the chance to know the Negro,” I certainly wouldn't support him then because as I looked at the Senator who had been in the Congress and Senate for some 14 years and still did not know the Negro, he couldn't possibly get my support to learn about me and my people in four years.

When I talked to Mr. Nixon, I was convinced he was sincere. He wasn't going out and doing the things I would like to see him do. He wasn't saying things; I think this cost him the election, but he told me confidentially and people in his staff told me what Mr. Nixon was aiming to do and the problem is, he said, “We don't think we can get the Negro vote, so therefore, we have got to try to win, but we promise you we are going to do certain kinds of things.” And he convinced me of his sincerity. So I supported him because Mr. Nixon convinced me. I didn't support Senator Kennedy because he told me he didn't know anything about the Negro and somebody who doesn't know anything about us, we are a complicated people and I think that somebody who doesn't know anything about us, it's not right to try to learn about us in four years, especially as the President of the United States.

Don: How about those of us here in the North, Jackie, who believe fervently in the positions the Negro is taking now in the cause in the sit-in, in strikes down South and so forth, but who perhaps can't participate as Reverend Martin Luther King suggested, a protest march down to Georgia or perhaps don't have enough money to financially help out NAACP. Is there anything that people like this can do to help the Negro cause to make themselves known?

Jackie: Certainly. You know, there are protests people can stand up and be counted when certain issues are made. You don't have to go south. I don't go South and participate with the sit-ins because the kids down there said don't come down because we don't want any of the people down here saying those Northern agitators are down here again. We're going to do this thing. What we need is your moral support, financially, but don't let it be known that you're coming down here participating, leading a movement. We want the people in the South to do this kind of thing. So what I've done is to give them every bit of moral support. I let them know that I believe enough in America, these these youngsters ought to continue to press for their rights here and their country. And I think that most Americans ought to do this. As I see it, most of the Northerners have not been affected to the point that they want to participate. They believe with the people down there and they said, gee whiz, this isn't right but they haven't really been touched by it. They haven't been affected so they sit and they look as they see it happen and read a newspaper and they really feel sorry and feel bad about it, but when they stand up one of these days and say, you know, I'm going to do something about it; I'm going to write to my Congressman. I'm going to let him know they have to do something about this kind of thing, then you're doing something. It doesn't take actual participation, in my opinion. It takes interest and it does take a letter here and there keeping up with the events letting people know exactly how you feel.

Don: Jackie Robinson's reasons for supporting Richard Nixon, the suggestions he offered t Northerners who wished to keep the Negro cause in the South, was well expressed and to the point that to add anything or try to summarize would be totally inadequate. I have wanted to ask Jackie Robinson that if by staying out of baseball, he didn't think we was being unfair to his many fans, to the fans who would come out to the park just to watch Jackie Robinson in perhaps a coaching capacity or even just sitting on the bench alongside of the player. I had wanted to ask Jackie Robinson if he didn't feel he owed it to baseball to stay in the sport as long as possible. However, after he answered my next question, I realized that there was no need to ask Jackie Robinson why he didn't feel he owed anything to baseball, why he didn't return. His next answer satisfied me on all these points.

The question I asked Jackie Robinson was, what are the things you most remember about your ten years in the sport?

Jackie: Well, Don I'd have to put it this way. You know I have a beautiful home in Stamford, Connecticut. I sit in my dining room and I look out through our picture window, and I look at the land that I have around and I think, had it not been for baseball, I couldn't have this.

I look at the things my children have, that I didn't have, had it not been for baseball, all these things could not have been. I look at the things that my wife is doing, the kinds of jobs that she's attempted to do in the community. Working with people, working at the hospital as the psychiatric nurse because she loves it. Had it not been for baseball, she wouldn't be able to devote this kind time to the things that she is interested in.

So, what else could I say other than the fact that as I look back at baseball, I thank baseball from the bottom of my heart for all it has done. I sincerely believe that although I loved it and that I look back on it within great love and care, and appreciation, I don't want to look back to the point to say I got to run back into baseball and participate.

I am not one to look back in this respect. But I am grateful. I remember certainly the many great things that I've had. I remember Ebbets Field. I listened to the wonderful fans there and go back even further when I was at Montreal when I was up there and the way the fans reacted to me.

I've got so many fond memories, Don, that I could sit here for the rest of your tape and talk about the many wonderful people who have contributed to where I am, and as I am here in Boston to be a part of the Boston Writers' Dinner, I can just be thankful to God and all of the wonderful people who have helped me through the years because I look back, seventeen years ago, and I ask myself, do you remember whether or not you will be able to get your next meal soon, 17 years ago. So baseball has given me a lot that I never would have been able to get. I'm grateful, I'm appreciative. It has enabled me to come up and have this wonderful chat with you; had it not been for baseball, all these things could not have been.

Don: Well, thank you very much Jackie Robinson, and for the privilege of having this chat with you, I am grateful to baseball.

Jackie: Thank you very much.

Don: You have been listening to Jackie Robinson – an interview with former Brooklyn Dodger Star and Hall of Famer, Jackie Robinson.